Most Americans know very little of the The Church of Latter Day Saints, or the Mormon Church, and even less about its founder, the religious megalomaniac, con artist, tyrant and mentally unstable “prophet” Joseph Smith. The Mormons will most likely be solemnly celebrating the day in which their founder, their prophet, was killed, treating the occasion as though he were a lamb taken to slaughter like Jesus Christ. And so a little biographical detail and history lesson is in order.
A good resource for an objective chronology of Joseph Smith’s Illinois perambulations lies in the book “A History of Illinois: From its Commencement as a State in 1818 to 1847.” The book’s author was Thomas Ford, the Governor of Illinois at the time. Ford, naturally, is not a little harsh with the Mormons, but how else could someone have responded when a treasure-hunting failed businessman attempted to set up a religious state in Nauvoo, Illinois. Perhaps Ford was wrong to entrust Smith and his brother Hyrum’s lives to the Carthage Greys, an anti-Mormon faction, but things then were not as they are now. Mob justice was always a possibility, especially during the time of Manifest Destiny.
Another good point of reference is John Krakauer’s “Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith.” Krakauer is known for his non-fiction prowess, and what readers will not get is the Mormon white-washing and distortion of historical events. “The Maze of Mormonism” by Dr. Walter Martin is also highly useful in understanding LDS.
In this article, however, we are only interested in the events leading up to Smith’s execution. Even a brief look at Smith’s chronology of travels across the midwest reveals failure after failure in creating a Mormon “Zion.” Indeed, “If at first you don’t succeed…” must have been Smith’s primary operating principle throughout his adult life. To be fair, however, the Mormons did suffer their fair share of scorn from non-Mormons; but the reaction to the scorn should have in no way led to a theocratic city-state with a standing army.
And, remember, America has always been a country rich in a variety of religious movements, most of which sprouted like tendrils from the protestant reformation. None seem to have attempted to create a theocratic city-state that would establish a state (or city) religion and abridge the First Amendment, as the early days of LDS shall illustrate.
In 1831, several years before heading to Illinois, Smith and LDS leaders set up a Mormon community in Kirtland, Ohio, hoping to establish the form of society they had envisioned. It was here that Smith and other church leaders attempted to establish a bank backed by real estate that Mormon followers would be encouraged to use, according to Fawn Brodie’s biography “No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith.” (Rather good idea for a money-making venture, no?)
Brodie writes:
“The toppling of the Kirtland bank loosed a hornets’ nest. Creditors swarmed in upon Joseph armed with threats and warrants. He was terribly in debt. There is no way of knowing exactly how much he and his leading elders had borrowed, since the loyal Mormons left no itemized account of their own claims. But the local non-Mormon creditors whom he could not repay brought a series of suits against the prophet which the Geauga county court duly recorded. These records tell a story of trouble that would have demolished the prestige and broken the spirit of a lesser man.
Thirteen suits were brought against him between June 1837 and April 1839, to collect sums totaling nearly $25,000. The damages asked amounted to almost $35,000. He was arrested seven times in four months, and his followers managed heroically to raise the $38,428 required for bail. Of the thirteen suits only six were settled out of court-about $12,000 out of the $25,000. In the other seven the creditors either were awarded damages or won them by default.” (pp. 198-202)
After fleeing from Kirtland following a warrant issued on account of bank fraud and multiple lawsuits, Smith moved to Far West, Missouri to establish yet another Zion, which is where the religion received its new name—The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
It was in Far West where Smith and some of his followers become more militant in their faith, adopting a paranoia of persecution by non-Mormons and disaffected Mormons alike—something typical of a great deal of revealed religions. A series of events during this time led to the 1838 Mormon War, which saw Mormons and Non-Mormons raiding each other’s towns, ultimately leading to the Battle of Crooked Creek, which found Smith and his Mormon army attacking a state militia—yes, a state militia. Smith’s army eventually surrendered and were tried for treason, but Smith was spirited away in April of 1839, thus avoiding trial.
Next stop: Nauvoo, Illinois.
Once in Nauvoo, Smith and his followers (those who hadn’t sensed his long con), made some friends in the Illinois government and received a charter for the city that would allow him to make it something of a city-state, or an autonomous zone, where the “oppressed” Mormon minority could feel safe and escape persecution. They were also granted a militia, the Nauvoo Legion, with John C. Bennett (a Mormon convert), and former member of the Illinois legislature, installed as Mayor. It was in Nauvoo that Smith introduced the concepts of polygamy and bigamy (revealed by God, of course). By 1842, Smith was intent on making Nauvoo the capital of a great American theocratic state. Good times.
Missouri officials attempted to have Smith extradited for the charges of treason, but Smith escaped on a writ of habeas corpus specifically designed for the city of Nauvoo. As Gov. Ford wrote in his book:
They enacted that no writ issued from any other place than Nauvoo, for the arrest of any person in it, should be executed in the city, without an approval endorsed thereon by the Mayor; that if any public officer, by virtue of any foreign writ, should attempt to make an arrest in the city, without such approval of his process, he should be subject to imprisonment for life, and that the Governor of the State should not have the power of pardoning the offender without the consent of the Mayor. When these ordinances were published, they created general astonishment. Many people began to believe in good earnest that the Mormons were about to set up a separate government for themselves in defiance of the laws of the state. (pg. 320)
With Missouri unable to extradite Smith, the LDS founder attempted to get guarantees of assistance from federal politicians. When these efforts failed, Smith announced his candidacy for the Presidency of the United States. Megalomania anyone?
At this point, according to ex-communicated author LDS member D. Michael Quinn, Smith organized the secret Council of Fifty to decide which state and federal laws the Mormon church would obey, but also find locations for a new Mormon theocratic state (California, Texas and Oregon were early candidates—Utah, of course, would become the ultimate site). Richard Ostling, a respected writer on religion in America, noted in his book “Mormon America: The Power and the Promise” that Smith and church leaders were intent on setting up a “theodemocracy” with Smith installed as ”Prophet, Priest, and King” of the Mormon Church, according to church leader William Clayton.
As Ford wrote:
It seems, from the best information which could be got from the best men who had seceded from the Mormon church, that Joe Smith about this time conceived the idea of making himself a prince as well as a spiritual leader of his people… He caused himself to be crowned and anointed king and priest, far above the rest… To uphold his pretensions of royalty, he deduced his descent by an unbroken chain from Joseph to the son of Jacob…” (Ford, pg. 322)
As in the monarchies of Europe, Smith was accumulating a divine mandate for kingly power, which had long been a repugnant idea to Americans, who had abhorred the tyranny of King George. One must wonder at this point if the real goal wasn’t so much to give the people divine revelation, but to simply accumulate power and money, to say nothing of a king’s ready access to a harem. Smith’s actions were more likely an admixture of religious delusion and greed.
By this time, John Bennett had been excommunicated for sexual indiscretions (a victim of a double standard it would seem), and so Smith was now both Mayor and President of LDS, making Nauvoo officially a theocratic city-state. How it was that Smith and company escaped state and federal law up until this point is truly astonishing: the political situation was a clear violation of the separation of church and state.
At this point, Smith’s doctrine of polygamy and power began to unsettle certain of his followers. Some were none too disposed toward adopting polygamy, nor in bestowing such political and religious power upon Smith. These critics created a newspaper, the Nauvoo Expositor, which published opinions that Smith was a false prophet, too powerful and had corrupted women by forcing them into plural marriages.
Naturally, Smith had the paper censored after just one issue since he believed it was creating a threat to his person. Smith was quoted as saying in the City Council’s minutes, “…would rather die tomorrow and have the thing smashed, than live and have it go on, for it was exciting the spirit of mobocracy among the people, and bringing death and destruction upon us.”
Soon after, warrants from outside Nauvoo were issued against Smith, which he countered with his writ of habeas corpus, believing himself to be beyond the laws of man. On June 18, according to Edwin Brown Firmage and Richard Collin Mangrum, Smith declared Martial law and raised an army of 5,000 men.
A trial was to be held in the County seat of Carthage, and Smith eventually opted to face trial after Gov. Ford guaranteed his safety. They were brought to trial on the crime of treason against the State of Illinois; which, of course, was a capital offense in the United States at that time. Smith, however, would never make it to trial. Ford left Carthage and Smith in the hands of the anti-Mormon Carthage Greys. The jail was stormed by a 200-strong mob, where Smith and Hyrum were killed. (The Nauvoo Legion, it should be noted, was never summoned to defend Smith and company.)
Though Smith’s end was unfortunate, credit must be given to Ford for averting all-out war by convincing Smith to surrender. Remember, Smith had raised an army of 5,000 from the Nauvoo Legion and basically invited the Illinois Governor to put down the insurrection, which he had every right to do. Smith’s actions before and during the revolution displayed a fundamental disregard for the very idea of America’s freedom from any official religion.
If the State of Illinois had nipped the problem of Smith and his militarized theocratic Nauvoo city-state in the bud early, Smith’s execution might have been averted. And while Governor Ford may have had it in for Smith and the Mormon Church, and could have addressed problems differently, he did ensure that the First Amendment, which Smith necessarily despised, still meant something.
And one can’t help thinking that Smith’s aim all along was to create a situation by which his opponents, whether non-Mormons or his Mormon critics, would create a contemporary persecution and execution that was Christ-like, delivered by the hands of American Pontius Pilates and Jewish analogues. As he said, ”I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer’s morning; I have a conscience void of offense towards God, and towards all men. I shall die innocent, and it shall yet be said of me — he was murdered in cold blood.”
And this is the story that the LDS church has propagated—that Smith was a religious martyr. Yes, a martyr who trampled on the U.S. constitution, committed various acts of treason, engaged in censorship, all in an effort to create a militarized theocratic city-state somewhere, anywhere, and at all costs. He was the very definition of a tyrant. And tyrants, as history has so often shown, meet their ends at the hands of a mob.
They can call it an “assassination” all they want, but the fact remains that Joseph Smith was a violator of the U.S. constitution. If he’d respected it and not gotten caught up in religious fanaticism, he might have lived—in which case, the Church wouldn’t have its martyr.
Now readers know a little bit more about the church of which Mitt Romney is a member.
June 27, 2012 at 9:44 pm, Geoff Brown said:
First of all, the name of the church is The Church of <Jesus Christ> of Latter-day Saints and that is not a picture of Joseph Smith.
Second, only in America can someone that the author describes as megalomaniac, a con artist, a tyrant and mentally unstable found an organization with more than 14 million members that has donated more than $1 billion in cash and material assistance to 167 different countries in need of humanitarian aid since it started keeping track in 1985.
http://mormon.org/humanitarian-aid/
Third, yes, read what Governor Thomas Ford wrote at the time. It will help you to understand why the state of Illinois eventually sent a delegation to Utah to apologized for its actions.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/08/national/08APOL.html
Those wishing to know more about the church are invited to go to http://www.mormon.org.
June 27, 2012 at 10:06 pm, Laman Lemuel said:
"Those wishing to know more about the church are invited to go to http://www.mormon.org"
Or they could watch "Top 10 Mormon Problems Explained" on YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ac_fLUHiBw
June 27, 2012 at 10:09 pm, Laman Lemuel said:
Unless you consider building temples and printing Books of Mormon charity, the LDS church is fairly mediocre in its charity.
In January 2006, from the Church PR department, (Deseret News Publishing Company): Edgley said, "that since 1984, the LDS Church has donated nearly $750 million in cash and goods to people in need in more than 150 countries." That averages to $37.5 mil per year or about $3-$4 per Mormon member went to the poor. The total of $750 million in 22 years spent in cash and goods to people in need is only a small fraction of what the church spent on a mall they bult in Salt Lake City.
The best estimates are that the church's assets are around $100 billion and that tithing runs $4.5-6.5 billion per year. But no matter how you slice it, humanitarian work is a small part of church expenditures.
Even many individuals and corporations spend more than 1% on charitable work:
Wal-Mart – 1.5%
Ford – 2.2%
JP Morgan 2.1%
MBNA – 1.4%
UPS – 1.1%
GM – 1.23%
Avon – 3.97%
MetLife – 1%
Prudential – 1.22%
Eli Lilly – 1.4%
According to the IRS, the average charitable contribution is 2.2%.
Why is it that several large corporations and the average gentile are more charitable than the one and only true church upon the face of the whole earth? Again we come back to the fact that the church proportionately spends very little of its wealth and income on helping the poor and unfortunate. Since the Church won't disclose it's finances, we cannot calculate the exact non-religious charitable giving, but it appears that less than 1% of tithing actually goes to helping the poor. If you include investment income, it's much less than that.
Why does there need to be a corporate side? Why does the church need to buy malls, hotels, restaurants, condos, ranches, farmland, Oahu land, resorts, TV stations, radio stations, newspapers, and insurance companies? How does owning these things contribute to the 3 missions of the church of perfecting the saints, redeeming the dead, and preaching the gospel?
The real point is that the church seems to get more money through tithing and investment income than it knows what to do with.
http://mormonthink.com/tithing.htm
June 27, 2012 at 10:09 pm, Laman Lemuel said:
Unless you consider building temples and printing Books of Mormon charity, the LDS church is fairly mediocre in its charity.
In January 2006, from the Church PR department, (Deseret News Publishing Company): Edgley said, "that since 1984, the LDS Church has donated nearly $750 million in cash and goods to people in need in more than 150 countries." That averages to $37.5 mil per year or about $3-$4 per Mormon member went to the poor. The total of $750 million in 22 years spent in cash and goods to people in need is only a small fraction of what the church spent on a mall they bult in Salt Lake City.
The best estimates are that the church's assets are around $100 billion and that tithing runs $4.5-6.5 billion per year. But no matter how you slice it, humanitarian work is a small part of church expenditures.
Even many individuals and corporations spend more than 1% on charitable work:
Wal-Mart – 1.5%
Ford – 2.2%
JP Morgan 2.1%
MBNA – 1.4%
UPS – 1.1%
GM – 1.23%
Avon – 3.97%
MetLife – 1%
Prudential – 1.22%
Eli Lilly – 1.4%
According to the IRS, the average charitable contribution is 2.2%.
Why is it that several large corporations and the average gentile are more charitable than the one and only true church upon the face of the whole earth? Again we come back to the fact that the church proportionately spends very little of its wealth and income on helping the poor and unfortunate. Since the Church won't disclose it's finances, we cannot calculate the exact non-religious charitable giving, but it appears that less than 1% of tithing actually goes to helping the poor. If you include investment income, it's much less than that.
Why does there need to be a corporate side? Why does the church need to buy malls, hotels, restaurants, condos, ranches, farmland, Oahu land, resorts, TV stations, radio stations, newspapers, and insurance companies? How does owning these things contribute to the 3 missions of the church of perfecting the saints, redeeming the dead, and preaching the gospel?
The real point is that the church seems to get more money through tithing and investment income than it knows what to do with.
http://mormonthink.com/tithing.htm
June 27, 2012 at 10:37 pm, Nelson Chung said:
^^^ Needs justification for his life of rampant hedonism.
June 27, 2012 at 11:10 pm, Geoff Brown said:
A couple of things since my original post:
First, they changed the picture of Joseph Smith.
Second, Laman Lemuel takes donations over a 21 year period ending in 2005 and divides them by more recent membership figures to come up with his statistics. This is at best disingenuous as the church has grown significantly over the timer period in question.
By the way Laman Lemuel, I never saw a response from you yesterday when I debunked your Utah suicide claims with statistics from the Centers for Disease Control. I did view the video you recommended. I suppose that might be convincing to some, but it is difficult for me not to see through the fallacious arguments, half truths, misstatement of facts, etc. It may be prideful, but I sincerely believe I could write much better Anti-Mormon stuff than that if I put the time into it. No offense intended if this site is what caused you to lose your testimony or this is something you put together.
Laman Lemuel, I had a vision about you and saw that you did not partake of the fruit of the tree of life. Instead you looked for light in dark spaces and were led into the mist of darkness. I exhort you to repent and keep the commandments of the Lord. Oh that you would hearken unto my words, that perhaps the Lord would be merciful to you, and not cast you off. Yea, at this time I cease speaking unto you Laman Lemuel.
June 27, 2012 at 11:25 pm, Laman Lemuel said:
"Yea, at this time I cease speaking unto you Laman Lemuel."
Why are you using King James English? Perhaps to sound more Biblical, like the Book of Mormon writers attempted in the 19th Century.
June 27, 2012 at 11:30 pm, Laman Lemuel said:
Nelson,
The Mormon apostle Mark E. Petersen gave a talk at Brigham Young University in 1954 concerning race relations.
(Race Problems as They Affect the Church, an address by Apostle Mark E. Petersen, delivered at the Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level, Brigham Young University, August 27, 1954)
“Let us consider the great mercy of God for a moment. A Chinese, born in China with A DARK SKIN, and with all the handicaps of that race seems to have little opportunity. But think of the mercy of God to Chinese people who are willing to accept the gospel. IN SPITE OF WHATEVER THEY MIGHT HAVE DONE IN THE PRE-EXISTENCE TO JUSTIFY BEING BORN OVER THERE AS CHINAMEN, if they now, in this life, accept the gospel and live it the rest of their lives they can have the Priesthood, go to the temple and receive endowments and sealings, and that means they can have exaltation. Isn't the mercy of God marvelous?"
June 28, 2012 at 12:42 am, Nelson Chung said:
^^^ Needs justification for life of rampant hedonism.
June 28, 2012 at 12:42 am, Nelson Chung said:
^^^ Needs justification for life of rampant hedonism.
June 28, 2012 at 12:44 am, Nelson Chung said:
Oh no, my testimony just fell apart! Why didn't the Church tell me??? I'll get offended like a pussy now and leave the Church.
June 28, 2012 at 3:13 am, Laman Lemuel said:
Nelson, I understand the path you are on.
You can find comfort and support at ExMormon.org
June 28, 2012 at 3:45 am, Kath Jones said:
Geoff, you are one of the most shining examples of utter embarrassment for the LDS church I've seen to date. Yet quite typical. This is how you all behave once you've had the light shined on your ridiculous defense "I can't argue with you, naner naner naner, so I will pretend to have a revelation and stop talking to you, because god said I should. Contention, if it makes me THINK, is of Satan!".
Yes kids…pay attention to how Geoff just behaved above. If you watch closely, it is exactly how Romney behaves and his henchmen to shut down any controversy about who he is and what is record is. LIE LIE LIE, it's all Mormon's got.
June 28, 2012 at 7:15 pm, Timothy Unrine said:
Geoff Brown
One, we know your 14 million number is fabricated, why? we don't know really know. Jocks in high school like to brag about whose Johnson is bigger, people expect better from religious organization. But if using 14 million is a recruiting tool, that explains the inflated numbers.
Just in one county alone, the fraud was pointed out:
http://www.columbiamissourian.com/stories/2012/05/09/census-finds-mormons-fastest-growing-religious-group-america/
A snippet from the article:
Boone County numbers show 1,941 Mormons in 2010 compared with 1,257 in 2000, an increase of about 54 percent.
*However, these figures do not accurately reflect the increase because the Mormon church changed the method to report its data from 2010. Prior to this census, it had not included members who were not actively involved with a congregation although baptized, according to a Salt Lake City Tribune article. In the latest census, however, the data included total membership numbers. The article explains the increase rate would have been closer to 18 percent, smaller than what has been reported.
So do the math – if 14 million is the inflated 54 percent number; what is the 18 percent number?
*****
18 percent growth versus 54 percent. Who are Mormons trying to fool? My Christian God knows exactly how many sheep He has in his flock; the Mormon God? I guess he can be fooled.
Now for humanitarian aid – the numbers are useless unless the church released the actual amount of revenue received through tithing, interest, investments. If this number of humanitarian aid is 1% of the gross revenue – it is unimpressive. If the number exceeds 40 percent – then it is worth noting.
However, no Mormon humanitarian aid moves anywhere without Press Releases; so it is marketing Mormonism; not charity. Just a commercial – like handing out baseball caps at a major league baseball game, or potential prom queens handing out pencils with their names on it.
I'm not impressed with commercials and taking advantage of someone else's disaster to market the Mormons.
Why must Mormons lie? It's the Lying for the Lord doctrine that they are taught as Missionaries. Say whatever it takes to close the deal – to get a person to baptism – even if based on lies and half-truths.
June 29, 2012 at 7:58 am, John Labounty said:
“It’s all Mormon’s got.” LOL An email was sent to Ex-Mormons and the best you all could come up with is Kat Hate? That’s all YOU got???
Actually I believe what Geoff has “got” is a sense of humor. He is writing Laman Lemuel, who has obviously taken his name from the two brothers in the Book of Mormon and who is not using his real identity on Face Book (Speaking of LIES, that is a violation of the Face Book user agreement). Anyway, the brothers get a talking to by their dad after he, not Goeff, had the vision about the tree of life. If you read 1 Nephi 8:35-38 you will see that Geoff has just had some fun with these verses.
You ex-Mormons need to lighten up. Naner, naner, naner, LIE, LIE, LIE . Relax people! Go do some mosaic art or something!
June 27, 2012 at 9:44 pm, Geoff Brown said:
First of all, the name of the church is The Church of <Jesus Christ> of Latter-day Saints and that is not a picture of Joseph Smith.
Second, only in America can someone that the author describes as megalomaniac, a con artist, a tyrant and mentally unstable found an organization with more than 14 million members that has donated more than $1 billion in cash and material assistance to 167 different countries in need of humanitarian aid since it started keeping track in 1985.
http://mormon.org/humanitarian-aid/
Third, yes, read what Governor Thomas Ford wrote at the time. It will help you to understand why the state of Illinois eventually sent a delegation to Utah to apologized for its actions.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/08/national/08APOL.html
Those wishing to know more about the church are invited to go to http://www.mormon.org.
June 27, 2012 at 9:52 pm, Jonathan Trottier said:
Dang this article has allot of wrong sources. Try this website Geoff sugested not any of this anti mormon stuff.
June 28, 2012 at 1:22 am, Joel Cannon said:
It is not what the article says, but what it leaves out that makes it so inaccurate and misleading. The author's disrespectful commentary makes it clear he has an agenda.
I think that Wikipedia is a relatively balanced and accessible source for any of the topics mentioned in this extremely biased article.
July 02, 2012 at 8:19 pm, Jonathan Trottier said:
agreed
June 27, 2012 at 9:54 pm, Joe Lawyer said:
Wow, blatant anti-Mormon ranting. I suppose you get what you pay for.
June 27, 2012 at 9:58 pm, Tom Grover said:
"They can call it an “assassination” all they want, but the fact remains that Joseph Smith was a violator of the U.S. constitution." Which Amendment did Joseph Smith violate? How could Joseph Smith violate the U.S. Constitution when he was not a member of Congress?
June 27, 2012 at 11:20 pm, Ben Jensen said:
He violated the First Amendment, freedom of speech and the freedom of press. He ordered the printing press destroyed which was making public his private polygamous marriages (and while it could be considered libel, looking back what they were printing was accurate). This immediately proceeded his arrest and assassination and therefore it could be attributed as a major factor leading to his death.
June 27, 2012 at 11:53 pm, Tom Grover said:
False. It was legally impossible for Joseph Smith to violate the First Amendment. He was not a member of Congress. Read the text of the Amendment: "CONGRESS shall make no law…." There was no 14th Amendment, and as such, the First Amendment had not been incorporated against the states. Consequently, state and local governments in the 19th century were not legally obligated to protect free speech and the destruction of printing presses by state and local governments did happen legally.
June 27, 2012 at 11:54 pm, Tom Grover said:
Anyway, this article is full of other embarrassing factual inaccuracies, is poorly written, and not proofread. If this were a high school history report it would receive, at best, a C-.
June 28, 2012 at 12:00 am, Ben Jensen said:
Fair enough. I am willing to accept it was simply wrong on principle even if it wasn't "technically" illegal.
June 28, 2012 at 12:02 am, Tom Grover said:
What principles? 21st century principles on pluralism and fairness?
June 28, 2012 at 12:02 am, Tom Grover said:
What principles? 21st century principles on pluralism and fairness?
June 28, 2012 at 12:03 am, Ben Jensen said:
No worries, I am not saying he is any worse than anybody else at the time. You are right, it was par for the course in his day.
June 28, 2012 at 12:52 am, Nelson Chung said:
Tom, Stop hitting us with your constitutional law stuff. You're just a skilled bully.
June 28, 2012 at 2:59 am, Brian Casaday said:
Ironically Ben, Joseph Smith was arrested and tried for the destruction of the printing press that you infer he was guilty of. He was found innocent under judge Aaron Johnson. He was then arrested again on the same charges (this may sound strange because today it is illegal to charge somebody with something they have already been tried for, but this was the 19th c. frontier, or mob rule) He was tried a second time and judged innocent, again, this time under judge Daniel Wells. It was while he was awaiting trial the third time that he was murdered.
June 28, 2012 at 3:32 am, Ben Jensen said:
Brian Casaday, thanks for the additional info. Although it doesn't mean what it once did to me I still find it fascinating and love learning about it. (Not being sarcastic btw, just want to make that clear since tone is difficult to convey).
June 29, 2012 at 8:10 pm, William Crafton said:
You write one then, Tom.
June 27, 2012 at 10:04 pm, Sam Lentz said:
Well said, Geoff.
DJ, I find it ironic that a publication whose name connotes things that are certain would choose to publish such poorly researched, politically charged filth. You're certainly free to express your opinion to advance your political agenda, but your lack of class, tact, and respect for others' religious beliefs will certainly not advance your career in journalism. (Maybe you can try MSNBC.) I'd suggest you stick to the heartwarming tales of upcoming indie track releases. Probably more in your wheelhouse.
June 27, 2012 at 10:20 pm, Nelson Chung said:
Holy cow, this article sucks.
June 28, 2012 at 5:27 am, Kath Jones said:
Because it actually made you think?
June 28, 2012 at 1:59 pm, Nelson Chung said:
^^^Needs justification
June 28, 2012 at 2:02 pm, Nelson Chung said:
For her life of rampant
June 28, 2012 at 2:02 pm, Nelson Chung said:
hedonism
June 27, 2012 at 10:21 pm, Nelson Chung said:
Krakauer's book is chock full of inaccuracies.
June 27, 2012 at 11:24 pm, Laman Lemuel said:
Since it is "chock full," can you name one specific one you find to be inaccurate?
June 27, 2012 at 11:27 pm, Nelson Chung said:
I'll give you a lot more than one.
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-response-to-jon-krakauers-under-the-banner-of-heaven
June 28, 2012 at 12:16 am, Laman Lemuel said:
Thank you. I will be sure to check out the link, which is the official Church of Jesus of Christ of Latter-day Saints response to the book.
"Three responses from the Church are given below. The first is a short response from the Church’s Director of Media Relations. The second is a summary by Richard E. Turley, managing director of the Family and Church History Department and an authority on Church history and doctrine. The third is a review by Robert L. Millet, Professor of Religious Understanding at Brigham Young University."
Robert L. Millet has an interesting lecture on the BYU web page.
http://newsnet.byu.edu/video/18773/video.asx
In this talk he talks about giving "milk before meat" and at 25:50 he tells missionaries to "answer the question they should have asked."
June 28, 2012 at 12:19 am, Nelson Chung said:
Krakauer conceded on at least 5 of the inaccuracies.
July 01, 2012 at 3:22 am, Jorge Fernandez said:
Yeah the Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints manipulate's it's members and covers it's hideous corrupt past?
Just look at all the mormons on the post?
They know if the rank and file find out the truth about it's history they will leave as documented data shows?
Funny how they keep it from the average rank and file mormon?
On March 27, 2012 Apostle Jeffrey Holland appeared on a BBC production called The Mormon Candidate which discussed Mitt Romney and Mormonism.
In the show Elder Holland was asked about members of the church who had problems with the church not being what it claims to be and have been treated badly as a result.
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9D452CCEBEF4EB72&feature=edit_ok
As part of the March 2012 “Mormonism and the Internet” conference held at Utah Valley University, John Dehlin, Scott Gordon (of the Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research or FAIR) and Rosemary Avance discuss LDS disaffection and apologetics.
“Why Mormons Question"
This link belows shows mormon apologist discuss why those leave the LDS church?
This was done at Utah Valley University so not a single person can say it was biased?
http://mormonstories.org/uvu-mormonism-and-the-internet-john-dehlin-scott-gordon-fair-and-rosemary-avance/
Specific Historical Factors Contributing to Disbelief??
Polygamy/Polyandry
Book of Abraham
Blacks and the Priesthood
DNA and the Book of Mormon
Masonic influences in the temple ceremony
Multiple, conflicting versions of the First Vision
Anachronisms in the Book of Mormon (e.g. horses, steel, etc.)
Women and the Priesthood
Past church positions on science, age of the earth, evolution, etc.
Issues with the authenticity or credibility of the priesthood restoration
Joseph's use of peep stones in the translation of the Book of Mormon
Changes in the temple ceremony
Loss of Credibility of the Three Witnesses
Blood atonement
Joseph Smith's history of treasure digging
Mountain meadows massacre
Adam-god theory
Kinderhook Plates
Mark Hofmann scandal
View of the Hebrews
The results of the whole survey is below
http://www.whymormonsquestion.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Survey-Results_Understanding-Mormon-Disbelief-Mar20121.pdf
The LDS Church is Deceptive!
Their whole history is a lie?
++
This link is my proof?
http://vintage.aomin.org/Mormonism.html
+
More links that prove the LDS church to be deceptive to it's own members and about it's past?
Visit mormon think right below and they have so much documented evidence?
http://www.mormonthink.com/
http://www.iamanexmormon.com/
http://postmormon.org/
http://www.mormonthink.com/
http://www.exmormonscholarstestify.org/
http://mormonexpression.com/
http://www.exmormonfoundation.org/
http://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/
http://www.lifeaftermormonism.net/
http://latterdaymainstreet.com/
http://www.mormonhandbook.com/
June 27, 2012 at 10:21 pm, Justine Harrison said:
You bet. Visit the official LDS websites.
But then visit:
mormonthink.com
postmormon.org
20truths.info
June 27, 2012 at 10:52 pm, Brian Casaday said:
What a bigoted article! I wonder what was the author's motivation behind it.
June 27, 2012 at 10:52 pm, Brian Casaday said:
What a bigoted article! I wonder what was the author's motivation behind it.
June 27, 2012 at 11:16 pm, Ben Jensen said:
While it does contain inaccuracies "Under the Banner of Heaven" was, for the most part, accurate. This is the book that triggered concern, extensive research and eventually my exit from the LDS church. I agree that the tone of this article is mainly negative, however most of what DJ shares is historical accuracy (while it isn't widely known or discussed within the church itself due to reasons I believe are obvious).
And you won't find any more details on these tough topics at Mormon.org as the church leadership has, unfortunately, decided not to address this portion of the church's history (as it paints it in a decidedly uninspired manner). You can try the LDS apologists but I found them to accelerate the disappearance of my testimony as I realized they are mostly highly skilled bullies. If you are ready to open your heart and mind a visit to MormonThink.com is the most comprehensive resource on these tough topics.
I have a hard time discerning when I see believing members of the church post on an article such as this whether they are upset at actual inaccuracies (of which there aren't many in this article), at how the information is presented, or just the fact that someone is airing the dirty laundry.
If Joseph Smith were around today his reaction to this unflattering article may be to destroy the internet.
June 27, 2012 at 11:46 pm, Scott Parker said:
Your last comment about JS destroying the internet is pure awesomeness!
June 28, 2012 at 12:26 am, Nelson Chung said:
Uh, no Mormonthink is not a good website to deal with tough issues. It is not peer reviewed, and the authors are anonymous with no credentials. They say they are just presenting the facts, but they draw conclusions, which they are not trained to do. It's a collaboration between an unbelieving member and apostate members.
There are plenty of peer-reviewed sources on Mormonism out there now. Oxford and Harvard have published books on Mormonism. If you're interested in real research go check them out.
June 28, 2012 at 12:28 am, Nelson Chung said:
Good book from reputable publisher: http://www.amazon.com/By-Hand-Mormon-American-Scripture/dp/0195168887/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1340843203&sr=8-1&keywords=givens+hand+of+mormon
June 28, 2012 at 12:28 am, Nelson Chung said:
Good book from reputable publisher: http://www.amazon.com/By-Hand-Mormon-American-Scripture/dp/0195168887/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1340843203&sr=8-1&keywords=givens+hand+of+mormon
June 28, 2012 at 12:39 am, Laman Lemuel said:
I personally like the "Top 10 Mormon Problems Explained" video on YouTube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ac_fLUHiBw
June 28, 2012 at 12:55 am, Nelson Chung said:
You are amazing at posting irrelevant garbage.
June 28, 2012 at 1:14 am, Laman Lemuel said:
When Ben Jensen mentioned MormonThink.com, you suggested a book, and then I suggested a YouTube video.
June 28, 2012 at 1:23 am, Ben Jensen said:
Irrelevant garbage = it makes me uncomfortable (ie cognitive dissonance).
June 28, 2012 at 1:24 am, Nelson Chung said:
I don't read crap that's not peer-reviewed, sorry.
June 28, 2012 at 1:35 am, Ben Jensen said:
Boyd Packer wouldn't approve of you relying on "intellectuals" like that… You really should stick to just the approved material if you can.
June 28, 2012 at 1:35 am, Laman Lemuel said:
Speaking of peer-reviewed research, Nelson, what do you make of the recent firing of Mormon apologist Daniel C. Peterson from the Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship at Brigham Young University? Dr. Peterson has served as editor of the Mormon Studies Review since its founding 23 years ago.
Shake-up hits BYU’s Mormon studies institute
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/54358137-78/mormon-institute-studies-peterson.html.csp
Why Byu And The Maxwell Institute Are In Serious, Serious Trouble
http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/58179-why-byu-and-the-maxwell-institute-are-in-serious-serious-trouble/
June 28, 2012 at 1:39 am, Nelson Chung said:
No, you are taking Boyd K. Packer out of context. What he meant to say was that the humanities are not very useful.
June 28, 2012 at 2:05 am, Ben Jensen said:
Only joking Nelson. Ouch for the BYU humanities department though.
June 28, 2012 at 2:29 am, Jon Wasden said:
Is the book of mormon peer reviewd?
June 28, 2012 at 2:35 am, Nelson Chung said:
Of course it is, 31 citations on google scholar. http://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=3791940917931274185&hl=en&as_sdt=0,21
June 28, 2012 at 2:47 am, Ben Jensen said:
Wait, is that the basis for peer reviewal…? Half of those links are broken and none of them include any type of review. They do have all the old copies before they removed all the "white and delightsome" references at least. The "original" Book of Mormon.
June 28, 2012 at 3:12 am, Laman Lemuel said:
Peer review is the evaluation of a person's work or performance by a group of people in the same occupation, profession, or industry.
A citation is the quoting or referencing to an authority or precedent.
The Book of Mormon was not peer reviewed, nor does your link lead to any citations.
Nelson, I understand the path you are on. It is one many people have undergone.
You can find support and comfort at ExMormon.org
June 28, 2012 at 5:25 am, Kath Jones said:
Nelson Chung You can also find numerous talks given about the truthfulness of "the gospel" here @ http://www.ExmormonFoundation.com and the YouTube link to the many brilliant talks are here: http://www.youtube.com/view_all_playlists?sf=time&sa=0
June 28, 2012 at 1:08 am, Joel Cannon said:
I was surprised ot see that today was the anniversary of Joseph Smith's death (I have never seen such an article before and assume it is only because of the national election).
Critics of the LDS Church often claim that Mormon's worship Joseph Smith instead of Jesus Christ.
Interestingly, very few Mormons could tell you when he was born, when he died or where he is buried.
I had to look it up in wikipedia to learn the answers (12/23/1805, 6/27/1844, Nauvoo IL).
June 28, 2012 at 2:14 am, Peter Smith said:
It is unfortunate that anyone might consider this article viable. There are lots ofi accuracies, and convenient omissions. For example, it was the Battle of Crooked River, not Crooked Creek, and there is no mention of the brutal slaughter of 17 LDS men and boys at Haun's Mill. Further, several books are cited as
June 28, 2012 at 2:17 am, Peter Smith said:
… Objective when more scholarly research has clearly debunked those sources. Was Smith perfect? Far from it, but intelligent people have enough sense to ferret out fanatical nonsense like this article from scholarly research which truly is objective.
June 28, 2012 at 3:45 am, Dan Cobb said:
The cult members are out in full force to defend their cult.
June 28, 2012 at 8:03 pm, Jim Payne EF said:
Isn't all religion a cult?
July 01, 2012 at 3:23 am, Jorge Fernandez said:
Yeah the Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints manipulate's it's members and covers it's hideous corrupt past?
Just look at all the mormons on the post?
They know if the rank and file find out the truth about it's history they will leave as documented data shows?
Funny how they keep it from the average rank and file mormon?
On March 27, 2012 Apostle Jeffrey Holland appeared on a BBC production called The Mormon Candidate which discussed Mitt Romney and Mormonism.
In the show Elder Holland was asked about members of the church who had problems with the church not being what it claims to be and have been treated badly as a result.
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9D452CCEBEF4EB72&feature=edit_ok
As part of the March 2012 “Mormonism and the Internet” conference held at Utah Valley University, John Dehlin, Scott Gordon (of the Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research or FAIR) and Rosemary Avance discuss LDS disaffection and apologetics.
“Why Mormons Question"
This link belows shows mormon apologist discuss why those leave the LDS church?
This was done at Utah Valley University so not a single person can say it was biased?
http://mormonstories.org/uvu-mormonism-and-the-internet-john-dehlin-scott-gordon-fair-and-rosemary-avance/
Specific Historical Factors Contributing to Disbelief??
Polygamy/Polyandry
Book of Abraham
Blacks and the Priesthood
DNA and the Book of Mormon
Masonic influences in the temple ceremony
Multiple, conflicting versions of the First Vision
Anachronisms in the Book of Mormon (e.g. horses, steel, etc.)
Women and the Priesthood
Past church positions on science, age of the earth, evolution, etc.
Issues with the authenticity or credibility of the priesthood restoration
Joseph's use of peep stones in the translation of the Book of Mormon
Changes in the temple ceremony
Loss of Credibility of the Three Witnesses
Blood atonement
Joseph Smith's history of treasure digging
Mountain meadows massacre
Adam-god theory
Kinderhook Plates
Mark Hofmann scandal
View of the Hebrews
The results of the whole survey is below
http://www.whymormonsquestion.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Survey-Results_Understanding-Mormon-Disbelief-Mar20121.pdf
The LDS Church is Deceptive!
Their whole history is a lie?
++
This link is my proof?
http://vintage.aomin.org/Mormonism.html
+
More links that prove the LDS church to be deceptive to it's own members and about it's past?
Visit mormon think right below and they have so much documented evidence?
http://www.mormonthink.com/
http://www.iamanexmormon.com/
http://postmormon.org/
http://www.mormonthink.com/
http://www.exmormonscholarstestify.org/
http://mormonexpression.com/
http://www.exmormonfoundation.org/
http://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/
http://www.lifeaftermormonism.net/
http://latterdaymainstreet.com/
http://www.mormonhandbook.com/
June 28, 2012 at 3:52 am, Richard Waldron said:
This is a typical, worn out anti-Mormon article and argument where the author doesn't even attempt to conceal the fact that he has an anti mormon agenda and doesn't even attempt to seem fair or impartial. He quotes Governor Ford who's book could be nothing but self serving on the topic of Joseph Smith since he was certainly responsible for his death and had guaranteed his safely in the Carthage Jail.
Interestingly enough no one has ever heard much of Ford or his book and probably never will outside of this article here and yet the name of Joseph Smith has gone forth into the whole world in fulfillment of prophesy that his name would be known throughout the earth for good and for bad. Ford died a fairly anonymous death and is barely remembered.
While Joseph Smith might be critized from the comfort of someones psuedo research facility (or home) it doesn't take away the absolute fact that Joseph Smith was willing and did give his life as a martyr for what he taught and believed and that fact bears great weight in the debate of true believers versus their skeptics who have an axe to grind.
June 28, 2012 at 4:19 am, Jacob Irving said:
Well said!
June 28, 2012 at 1:01 pm, Jency Hinkle said:
I'm not Mormon, and I have questions about Joseph smith, but I can't argue that he dies for what he believed in
July 01, 2012 at 3:23 am, Jorge Fernandez said:
Yeah the Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints manipulate's it's members and covers it's hideous corrupt past?
Just look at all the mormons on the post?
They know if the rank and file find out the truth about it's history they will leave as documented data shows?
Funny how they keep it from the average rank and file mormon?
On March 27, 2012 Apostle Jeffrey Holland appeared on a BBC production called The Mormon Candidate which discussed Mitt Romney and Mormonism.
In the show Elder Holland was asked about members of the church who had problems with the church not being what it claims to be and have been treated badly as a result.
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9D452CCEBEF4EB72&feature=edit_ok
As part of the March 2012 “Mormonism and the Internet” conference held at Utah Valley University, John Dehlin, Scott Gordon (of the Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research or FAIR) and Rosemary Avance discuss LDS disaffection and apologetics.
“Why Mormons Question"
This link belows shows mormon apologist discuss why those leave the LDS church?
This was done at Utah Valley University so not a single person can say it was biased?
http://mormonstories.org/uvu-mormonism-and-the-internet-john-dehlin-scott-gordon-fair-and-rosemary-avance/
Specific Historical Factors Contributing to Disbelief??
Polygamy/Polyandry
Book of Abraham
Blacks and the Priesthood
DNA and the Book of Mormon
Masonic influences in the temple ceremony
Multiple, conflicting versions of the First Vision
Anachronisms in the Book of Mormon (e.g. horses, steel, etc.)
Women and the Priesthood
Past church positions on science, age of the earth, evolution, etc.
Issues with the authenticity or credibility of the priesthood restoration
Joseph's use of peep stones in the translation of the Book of Mormon
Changes in the temple ceremony
Loss of Credibility of the Three Witnesses
Blood atonement
Joseph Smith's history of treasure digging
Mountain meadows massacre
Adam-god theory
Kinderhook Plates
Mark Hofmann scandal
View of the Hebrews
The results of the whole survey is below
http://www.whymormonsquestion.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Survey-Results_Understanding-Mormon-Disbelief-Mar20121.pdf
The LDS Church is Deceptive!
Their whole history is a lie?
++
This link is my proof?
http://vintage.aomin.org/Mormonism.html
+
More links that prove the LDS church to be deceptive to it's own members and about it's past?
Visit mormon think right below and they have so much documented evidence?
http://www.mormonthink.com/
http://www.iamanexmormon.com/
http://postmormon.org/
http://www.mormonthink.com/
http://www.exmormonscholarstestify.org/
http://mormonexpression.com/
http://www.exmormonfoundation.org/
http://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/
http://www.lifeaftermormonism.net/
http://latterdaymainstreet.com/
http://www.mormonhandbook.com/
July 04, 2012 at 2:23 am, Robin Raleigh said:
loved your answer on this topic
June 28, 2012 at 5:36 am, Kath Jones said:
Having read the entire comment section, up to now, we find the Mormon's lying over and over. To us and to themselves. What they don't want to face about the "Profit" Joseph Smith and who he really was, is fine with me. But keep in mind, they are taught to Lie For the Lord" from birth (as was I). Never tell the truth about Mormonism. The unlearned must only learn the "Milk before Meat"…the depths of the (mental) trap goes quite deep. And they are taught that no matter what, "the ends justify the means". A Mormon for President so that Jesus will come back and reign (and, lets not forget the most important part…make ALL the worthy Priesthood holders the rulers of the world Govt.), is ALL that matters to the die hard faithful. THEY believe they will rule the earth one day, and they plan on it.
June 28, 2012 at 6:44 am, Anders Tronsen said:
compare & contrast with-to Tommy Monson: 'the Committee' keeps him So Quiet… you hardly know he's alive! Most Visible so far: "LET'S GO SHOPPING" at the Great & Spacious Mall! Press Conference? NO! Speak @ YBU? Not that I've heard. Drive around in an armored car? YES! They just won't let him speak outside of GC. Not a whole like GBH, how disappointing, when you Finally make it to the top!
June 28, 2012 at 7:09 am, Sandra Barnhart said:
I completely agree with you! I am glad we are "friends" on here. Your post is like a breath of fresh truth!!! I have been indulging in the Mormonstories podcasts recently on YouTube. These people are not dumb people but, why don't they admit to the Mormon hoax and get out??? They try to purport integrity but they frustrate me at trying to live the lie and crucyfying themselves while attempting to live it!!! I am angry because of it. The Mormon lies are so completely idiotic and brimming to the top. What is the deal? TTYL. =)
June 29, 2012 at 2:59 am, Anders Tronsen said:
Thanks & YW, Sandra
June 28, 2012 at 5:55 am, Tony Upstart said:
oifdovjjvjsVmdmd, mx
June 28, 2012 at 5:58 am, Tony Upstart said:
Hey Geoff…in regards to that is not a picture of Joseph Smith…..of course it iisn’t…it’s a painting…! They did have Kodak’s back then…….
June 28, 2012 at 6:41 am, Tony Upstart said:
In your article you say “the political situation (of Nauvoo) was a clear violation of the separation of church and state.” ….I suppose because Joseph Smith was Mayor /Governor and head of a church. The Supreme Court first ruled on separation of church and state in 1878; then made explicit for religion clauses by the Supreme Court in 1947. This did not apply in the late 1830’s. In addition, if it should apply out of the “spirit of separation of church and state” this does not apply either because you already stated Joseph Smith is a false prophet of a false church…most people believe the Mormon church is a cult….cults are exempted by the constitution and as a cult they can do what they want.
You also state, “First Amendment, which Smith necessarily despised, still meant something.” Smith despised the 1st Amendment? I may point out; Smith in 1842, while living in Nauvoo, wrote a letter to the Chicago Democrat which they published word for word. The letter contained 13 fundamental statements of Mormon belief. Statement #11 says…” We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.” Underline added.
Lastly you state, Smith was engaged in an “effort to create a militarized theocratic city-state somewhere, anywhere, and at all costs.” Again I may point out, in that same letter with the Mormon statements of beliefs, Statement #12 says….” We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.”.
Joseph Smith never wanted to be a King; the Mormon Church does not teach or believe in a theocracy, never has and never will. As with all good Christian churches, we believe proper government is a Kingdom led by the only Person whose right it is to rule and will do so one day…..even Jesus Christ, the King of Kings.
June 28, 2012 at 6:41 am, Tony Upstart said:
In your article you say “the political situation (of Nauvoo) was a clear violation of the separation of church and state.” ….I suppose because Joseph Smith was Mayor /Governor and head of a church. The Supreme Court first ruled on separation of church and state in 1878; then made explicit for religion clauses by the Supreme Court in 1947. This did not apply in the late 1830’s. In addition, if it should apply out of the “spirit of separation of church and state” this does not apply either because you already stated Joseph Smith is a false prophet of a false church…most people believe the Mormon church is a cult….cults are exempted by the constitution and as a cult they can do what they want.
You also state, “First Amendment, which Smith necessarily despised, still meant something.” Smith despised the 1st Amendment? I may point out; Smith in 1842, while living in Nauvoo, wrote a letter to the Chicago Democrat which they published word for word. The letter contained 13 fundamental statements of Mormon belief. Statement #11 says…” We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.” Underline added.
Lastly you state, Smith was engaged in an “effort to create a militarized theocratic city-state somewhere, anywhere, and at all costs.” Again I may point out, in that same letter with the Mormon statements of beliefs, Statement #12 says….” We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.”.
Joseph Smith never wanted to be a King; the Mormon Church does not teach or believe in a theocracy, never has and never will. As with all good Christian churches, we believe proper government is a Kingdom led by the only Person whose right it is to rule and will do so one day…..even Jesus Christ, the King of Kings.
June 28, 2012 at 10:43 am, Mormon Meuk said:
A great article. But you left out the bit where Joseph Smith shot and killed two of his would be assassins during the gun battle that eventually killed him. Hardly the work of a Martyr? Of course you will be accused of religious bigotry by the Mormons who will never believe the 'anti-Mormon' non-mormon-sanitised version of events.
@Geoff Brown £1 Billion? on aid since it's existence – £5 Billion? on a Utah Shopping Mall This Year. LOL!
June 28, 2012 at 3:26 pm, Joel Cannon said:
Are you insinuating it was a fair fight and Smith just lost?
Apparently, you are not familiar with the details (which this article is careful to omit).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Joseph_Smith
July 01, 2012 at 3:21 am, Jorge Fernandez said:
Yeah the Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints manipulate's it's members and covers it's hideous corrupt past?
Just look at all the mormons on the post?
They know if the rank and file find out the truth about it's history they will leave as documented data shows?
Funny how they keep it from the average rank and file mormon?
On March 27, 2012 Apostle Jeffrey Holland appeared on a BBC production called The Mormon Candidate which discussed Mitt Romney and Mormonism.
In the show Elder Holland was asked about members of the church who had problems with the church not being what it claims to be and have been treated badly as a result.
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9D452CCEBEF4EB72&feature=edit_ok
As part of the March 2012 “Mormonism and the Internet” conference held at Utah Valley University, John Dehlin, Scott Gordon (of the Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research or FAIR) and Rosemary Avance discuss LDS disaffection and apologetics.
“Why Mormons Question"
This link belows shows mormon apologist discuss why those leave the LDS church?
This was done at Utah Valley University so not a single person can say it was biased?
http://mormonstories.org/uvu-mormonism-and-the-internet-john-dehlin-scott-gordon-fair-and-rosemary-avance/
Specific Historical Factors Contributing to Disbelief??
Polygamy/Polyandry
Book of Abraham
Blacks and the Priesthood
DNA and the Book of Mormon
Masonic influences in the temple ceremony
Multiple, conflicting versions of the First Vision
Anachronisms in the Book of Mormon (e.g. horses, steel, etc.)
Women and the Priesthood
Past church positions on science, age of the earth, evolution, etc.
Issues with the authenticity or credibility of the priesthood restoration
Joseph's use of peep stones in the translation of the Book of Mormon
Changes in the temple ceremony
Loss of Credibility of the Three Witnesses
Blood atonement
Joseph Smith's history of treasure digging
Mountain meadows massacre
Adam-god theory
Kinderhook Plates
Mark Hofmann scandal
View of the Hebrews
The results of the whole survey is below
http://www.whymormonsquestion.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Survey-Results_Understanding-Mormon-Disbelief-Mar20121.pdf
The LDS Church is Deceptive!
Their whole history is a lie?
++
This link is my proof?
http://vintage.aomin.org/Mormonism.html
+
More links that prove the LDS church to be deceptive to it's own members and about it's past?
Visit mormon think right below and they have so much documented evidence?
http://www.mormonthink.com/
http://www.iamanexmormon.com/
http://postmormon.org/
http://www.mormonthink.com/
http://www.exmormonscholarstestify.org/
http://mormonexpression.com/
http://www.exmormonfoundation.org/
http://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/
http://www.lifeaftermormonism.net/
http://latterdaymainstreet.com/
http://www.mormonhandbook.com/
July 04, 2012 at 1:26 pm, Mormon Meuk said:
I never insinuated it was a fair fight. Smith was murdered by an angry mob after he ordered the destruction of a printing press that dared to print the truth about his debauchery. All I'm saying is the fact he shot and killed 2 men on the way out hardly makes him a Martyr.
September 21, 2012 at 2:44 am, Joseph Richard Smith said:
Critics claim that Joseph Smith is not a martyr because, while in jail, he had a gun and he had the temerity to defend himself.
Critics claim that Joseph killed two men by firing at the mob.
1.Joseph and Hyrum were martyrs by the accepted definition of the term—they suffered death for their beliefs. (Note that martyrs can die for worthy or ignoble causes, but this makes them no less martyrs.)
2.The Church has not hidden this fact, but published it from the beginning and includes it in the History of the Church twice.
3.Joseph was not guilty of murder, because no one died from his shots, and his actions would have been justifiable as self-defense and defense of others even if deaths had resulted.
Unfortunately for the critics, Joseph's attempt to defend himself, his brother, and his friends, and his possession of a pepperbox gun, is clearly spelled out in the History of the Church:
If the Church wished to hide these facts, why did they publish them in the History of the Church not once, but twice?
The critics' third attack is to insist that since Joseph fired his gun six times (only three shots discharged) and he hit two of the mobbers, he is a murderer.
Joseph's actions were clearly self-defense and defense of others under the common law. However, this point is moot since the attackers who were hit were not killed (as was first reported in some Church publications) but only wounded. They were alive and well at the trial held for mob leaders, and were identified by witnesses. Their good health allowed them to receive gifts because of their role in the assault on Joseph, Hyrum, and the other prisoners.
According to Dallin Oaks and Marvin Hill:
Wills, Voras, and Gallaher were probably named in the indictment because their wounds, which testimony showed were received at the jail, were irrefutable evidence that they had participated in the mob. They undoubtedly recognized their vulnerability and fled the county. A contemporary witness reported these three as saying that they were the first men at the jail, that one of them shot through the door killing Hyrum, that Joseph wounded all three with his pistol, and that Gallaher shot Joseph as he ran to the window.[Hay, "The Mormon Prophet's Tragedy," 675] According to Hay, Wills, whom the Mormon prophet had shot in the arm, was an Irishman who had joined the mob from “his congenital love of a brawl.”[Statement of Jeremiah Willey, August 13, 1844, Brigham Young correspondence, Church Archives.] Gallaher was a young man from Mississippi who was shot in the face.[Hay, "The Mormon Prophet's Tragedy," 669, 675. Another source says Wills was a former Mormon elder who had left the Church. Davis, An Authentic Account, 24.] Hay described Voras (Voorhees) as a “half-grown hobbledehoy from Bear Creek” whom Joseph shot in the shoulder. The citizens of Green Plains were said to have given Gallaher and Voras new suits of clothes for their parts in the killing.[Statement of Jeremiah Willey, August 13, 1844]
September 21, 2012 at 2:45 am, Joseph Richard Smith said:
Anyone with a reading level of a 10th grader can understand this.
June 28, 2012 at 10:43 am, Mormon Meuk said:
A great article. But you left out the bit where Joseph Smith shot and killed two of his would be assassins during the gun battle that eventually killed him. Hardly the work of a Martyr? Of course you will be accused of religious bigotry by the Mormons who will never believe the 'anti-Mormon' non-mormon-sanitised version of events.
@Geoff Brown £1 Billion? on aid since it's existence – £5 Billion? on a Utah Shopping Mall This Year. LOL!
June 28, 2012 at 10:43 am, Mormon Meuk said:
A great article. But you left out the bit where Joseph Smith shot and killed two of his would be assassins during the gun battle that eventually killed him. Hardly the work of a Martyr? Of course you will be accused of religious bigotry by the Mormons who will never believe the 'anti-Mormon' non-mormon-sanitised version of events.
@Geoff Brown £1 Billion? on aid since it's existence – £5 Billion? on a Utah Shopping Mall This Year. LOL!
June 28, 2012 at 6:27 pm, Dwight Rogers said:
The enemies of Joseph charged him with fraud in various property conveyances, mostly in behalf of the Church. A succession of court proceedings that extended for nearly a decade examined these claims in meticulous detail. Finally, in 1852, long after the Saints’ exodus from Illinois (so there was no conceivable political or other cause for anyone to favor the Prophet), a federal judge concluded this litigation with a decree that found no fraud or other moral impropriety by the Prophet. (See Dallin H. Oaks and Joseph I. Bentley, “Joseph Smith and Legal Process: In the Wake of the Steamboat Nauvoo,” BYU Law Review [1976]: 735.)
June 28, 2012 at 6:30 pm, Dwight Rogers said:
The article cites Fawn Brodie’s biography “No Man Knows My History and John Krakauer’s “Under the Banner of Heaven. These are two of the most inaccurate histories of Mormonism and Joseph Smith as show by research of more credible historians.
June 28, 2012 at 6:33 pm, Dwight Rogers said:
Warren Parrish apostatized from the church with a disgruntled attitude. In May of 1837, a general banking panic began in the eastern states and spread across the country and became known as the Panic of 1837. The Kirtland Safety Society was in serious trouble by the spring of 1837. Joseph Smith resigned from it by 8 June 1837 due to dishonesty on the part of other bank officers and publicly warned the Saints about continuing to use the Safety Society’s notes.
Warren Parrish was an officer of the Safety Society. Joseph Smith started noticing that money went missing when only Parrish had access to it. Evidence seemed clear the money was being kept in Parrish's trunk. But before Joseph Smith could get a warrant to search it, the trunk disappeared. As Heber C. Kimball records, Parrish later admitted to embezzling $20,000.00 That’s the equivalent of $475,000 today.
The Safety Society had a reserve of $21,000 in specie and notes from other banks. With that $20,000, Parrish could completely wipe out the Safety Society's liquid assets. That would ruin the Safety Society.
In addition to the $20,000.00 embezzled from the bank Warren Parrish and several other officers of the Society who had also apostatized from the church stole one hundred thousand out of the vault, sent cronies around to buy up horses, wagons, farms, and cattle. When the people deposited the notes back into the bank Parrish and his cronies would steal the money out of the vault again and repeat the process. By this means Parrish and his buddies obtained much wealth in the form of property leaving the note holders top lose when the bank failed. ( Smith, George A,[November 15, 1964] Journal of Discourses 11:1-11.
Joseph Smith, was the second largest shareholder of the Safety Society and stood to lose the most if it failed. He paid more per share than 85% of the shareholders. He probably invested more money than anyone else. Instead of bailing out at the first sign of trouble he invested more as things got worse in an effort to help the Society succeed and prevent others from losing their money. Joseph sold personal property for $5000 in order to give more help to the Safety Society. And last, he paid all his debts. When he left Kirtland, he left Oliver Granger in charge of his affairs, to settle all outstanding claims. Joseph actually lost a lot of money from the Safety Society – possibly more than anyone else. (White, R. McKay, “The Kirtland Safety Society).
June 28, 2012 at 6:38 pm, Dwight Rogers said:
This whole article is revisionist history at it’s height. It’s propaganda.
June 29, 2012 at 3:02 am, Joan Low said:
When you die, maybe your ex-wife will get your worst enemy to write your obituary!
July 01, 2012 at 3:20 am, Jorge Fernandez said:
Yeah the Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints manipulate's it's members and covers it's hideous corrupt past?
Just look at all the mormons on the post?
They know if the rank and file find out the truth about it's history they will leave as documented data shows?
Funny how they keep it from the average rank and file mormon?
On March 27, 2012 Apostle Jeffrey Holland appeared on a BBC production called The Mormon Candidate which discussed Mitt Romney and Mormonism.
In the show Elder Holland was asked about members of the church who had problems with the church not being what it claims to be and have been treated badly as a result.
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9D452CCEBEF4EB72&feature=edit_ok
As part of the March 2012 “Mormonism and the Internet” conference held at Utah Valley University, John Dehlin, Scott Gordon (of the Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research or FAIR) and Rosemary Avance discuss LDS disaffection and apologetics.
“Why Mormons Question".
This link belows shows mormon apologist discuss why those leave the LDS church?
This was done at Utah Valley University so not a single person can say it was biased?
http://mormonstories.org/uvu-mormonism-and-the-internet-john-dehlin-scott-gordon-fair-and-rosemary-avance/
Specific Historical Factors Contributing to Disbelief?
Polygamy/Polyandry
Book of Abraham.
Blacks and the Priesthood.
DNA and the Book of Mormon.
Masonic influences in the temple ceremony.
Multiple, conflicting versions of the First Vision.
Anachronisms in the Book of Mormon (e.g. horses, steel, etc.)
Women and the Priesthood.
Past church positions on science, age of the earth, evolution, etc.
Issues with the authenticity or credibility of the priesthood restoration.
Joseph's use of peep stones in the translation of the Book of Mormon.
Changes in the temple ceremony.
Loss of Credibility of the Three Witnesses.
Blood atonement
Joseph Smith's history of treasure digging.
Mountain meadows massacre.
Adam-god theory
Kinderhook Plates
Mark Hofmann scandal.
View of the Hebrews.
The results of the whole survey is below.
http://www.whymormonsquestion.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Survey-Results_Understanding-Mormon-Disbelief-Mar20121.pdf
The LDS Church is Deceptive!
Their whole history is a lie?
++
This link is my proof?
http://vintage.aomin.org/Mormonism.html
+
More links that prove the LDS church to be deceptive to it's own members and about it's past?
Visit mormon think right below and they have so much documented evidence?
http://www.mormonthink.com/
http://www.iamanexmormon.com/
http://postmormon.org/
http://www.mormonthink.com/
http://www.exmormonscholarstestify.org/
http://mormonexpression.com/
http://www.exmormonfoundation.org/
http://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/
http://www.lifeaftermormonism.net/
http://latterdaymainstreet.com/
http://www.mormonhandbook.com/
July 01, 2012 at 3:20 am, Jorge Fernandez said:
Yeah the Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints manipulate's it's members and covers it's hideous corrupt past?
Just look at all the mormons on the post?
They know if the rank and file find out the truth about it's history they will leave as documented data shows?
Funny how they keep it from the average rank and file mormon?
On March 27, 2012 Apostle Jeffrey Holland appeared on a BBC production called The Mormon Candidate which discussed Mitt Romney and Mormonism.
In the show Elder Holland was asked about members of the church who had problems with the church not being what it claims to be and have been treated badly as a result.
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9D452CCEBEF4EB72&feature=edit_ok
As part of the March 2012 “Mormonism and the Internet” conference held at Utah Valley University, John Dehlin, Scott Gordon (of the Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research or FAIR) and Rosemary Avance discuss LDS disaffection and apologetics.
“Why Mormons Question".
This link belows shows mormon apologist discuss why those leave the LDS church?
This was done at Utah Valley University so not a single person can say it was biased?
http://mormonstories.org/uvu-mormonism-and-the-internet-john-dehlin-scott-gordon-fair-and-rosemary-avance/
Specific Historical Factors Contributing to Disbelief?
Polygamy/Polyandry
Book of Abraham.
Blacks and the Priesthood.
DNA and the Book of Mormon.
Masonic influences in the temple ceremony.
Multiple, conflicting versions of the First Vision.
Anachronisms in the Book of Mormon (e.g. horses, steel, etc.)
Women and the Priesthood.
Past church positions on science, age of the earth, evolution, etc.
Issues with the authenticity or credibility of the priesthood restoration.
Joseph's use of peep stones in the translation of the Book of Mormon.
Changes in the temple ceremony.
Loss of Credibility of the Three Witnesses.
Blood atonement
Joseph Smith's history of treasure digging.
Mountain meadows massacre.
Adam-god theory
Kinderhook Plates
Mark Hofmann scandal.
View of the Hebrews.
The results of the whole survey is below.
http://www.whymormonsquestion.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Survey-Results_Understanding-Mormon-Disbelief-Mar20121.pdf
The LDS Church is Deceptive!
Their whole history is a lie?
++
This link is my proof?
http://vintage.aomin.org/Mormonism.html
+
More links that prove the LDS church to be deceptive to it's own members and about it's past?
Visit mormon think right below and they have so much documented evidence?
http://www.mormonthink.com/
http://www.iamanexmormon.com/
http://postmormon.org/
http://www.mormonthink.com/
http://www.exmormonscholarstestify.org/
http://mormonexpression.com/
http://www.exmormonfoundation.org/
http://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/
http://www.lifeaftermormonism.net/
http://latterdaymainstreet.com/
http://www.mormonhandbook.com/
July 02, 2012 at 1:51 am, Eric Larsen said:
All of you MORmONS can nitpick and distort the facts all you want. Fact of the matter is that facts are just that, FACTS! Wake up people.
September 20, 2012 at 11:29 pm, Dwight Rogers said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eN3RALJEokc&feature=em-uploademail